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Post by medowbrookgoer39 on Oct 2, 2006 15:02:48 GMT -5
So you guys are saying that christianity and the bible are completely inseperable? Also, how are you to know what God's commands are by only reading the bible? Isn't most of it written by men much like pastor's writing books today? The only thing we can literally take as direct God given commandments are the words of Jesus and the 10 commandments given by God in the old testament.
I'm going to try and relate this back to politics now here.
Going back to the point about stoning our kids because they are acting up, using your argument that you stand by everything in the bible, should we then stand by that in scripture and make it so to everyone else? What about other things in the bible like that, which are in direct contradiction to biblical beliefs?
Or how about the other way around. What about things that are promoted by Christians that contradict their very values and beliefs? The biggest contradiction to this philosophy comes out today in the aspect of lying. That is something we are not supposed to do right? A command given by God? Then why do we try to put people in jail for doing something that violates no religion that they follow? Are their any given laws or guidelines other than murder and stealing written in our constitution that would give us permission to instill Christian values on the rest of the population? Supposing it doesn't, isn't that then lying to people about the true laws of our nation? Or how about the absurd amount of financial misgivings in our government. Our current administration is responsible for the largest increase in national debt than all other presidents combined. Isn't going over a said budget lying to the people as well? Why are these issues not spoken of if we are trying to bring the bible into every decision we make?
In conclusion, what i'm really trying to get at here is why can we decide to make laws about the beliefs we have when making them contradicts the laws of our nation that we already have in place? Does that not contradict our beliefs? I know its a doosie of a post, but think about it.
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Post by lordofthesquishies on Oct 2, 2006 17:23:48 GMT -5
Whoo, it is quite a doozy. Lemme try my best to respond and I apologize for anything I leave unclear or messed up as I'm not the greatest orator. So...
As for comparing the Bible to books written by pastors I feel the Bible is far superior. First of all, everything written by pastors is based on the Bible. Second of all, the Bible is the Word of God and has survived for millenia and will continue doing so, whereas modern books will probably have their time.
About the stoning thing, I feel that certain things are just quite obvious. Also, with the entire concept of grace things have changed around. I'm not and never have advocated throwing people in jail or ostracizing them for being homosexual. But I don't fail that it should be made easier for that type of thing to spread and allow them all the benefits that come with marriage. Please don't ask me to expound because I'm not entirely sure what they are. All I know is that there are some that come with it. Please ask someone else to fill you in and sorry for my inadequacy.
As for sticking people in jail for a religion they don't believe in I'm going to try as best as I can to explain my stand. Chances are it will sound very cruel but... This is the only way I can think of to say it. Basically if someone doesn't believe in gravity and jumps off a building they will hit the ground and die. If someone doesn't believe in Christianity and dies a sinner they will stand before God and He will send them to Hell. I don't want to make it easier for people to go there.
The last thing I can see to respond to is the administration. I have no idea about the budget as I'm not that politically literate and have only recently started monitoring things like that. The only thing I can say is we are not the administration and we haven't lied. I have no idea what to do about it and would appreciate being filled in on it.
If this post needs to be altered, explained, or deleted please let me know.
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Telcontar
Junior Member
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise...
Posts: 91
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Post by Telcontar on Oct 2, 2006 22:08:25 GMT -5
I noticed you used Hebrews to defend the authority of the Bible. What might interest you to know is that the only reason Hebrews was even considered authoritative is because the majority of Christians at the time believed that Paul wrote it. However, today almost all scholars would agree that Paul was not indeed the author. Can anyone say oops? So this calls into question the foundation upon which your argument is based.
Also, from a more logical standpoint, how could Hebrews make an argument for the value of the NT when it was written before the NT was even compiled? The same goes for that 2 Timothy verse which I can't quote, (we didn't do that in WBB). The NT cannot claim any authority for itself because it did not exist when it was written.
As for the fact that the OT has lasted a long time and therefore makes the rest of the Bible true... The Jews and the Muslims both claim the OT for both of their religions and thus whatever claim we can make on it they can make as well. I already talked a bit about the NT so I can't really agree with you that the Bible is a good basis for law. This also assumes that because something lasted a long time it should be more true than something that did not. This is not a valid assumption. We can see no evidence for this in real life; the longevity of something does not prove it's value, just it's longevity.
C.S. Lewis makes great moral arguments that are made completely independent of the Bible and in my opinion Lewis is greater than most of the NT writers (he'd probably not like me saying that but oh well). It is possible to find truth outside of the Bible although that doesn't always mean that it won't say the same thing as the Bible, just that truth is independent of the Bible.
two parting things to think about... How would you prevent the spread of homosexuality if not through force? Gravity is a known scientific law, non-evangelicals going to hell is not. Should we base laws on opinion rather than fact?
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Post by Robby on Oct 2, 2006 23:43:08 GMT -5
Well I can certaintly tell you that my post shall not be near as long nor as intellectual as these last 3 but I shall try.
My post somewhat answers both, actually more like a response. Why should we push our view of morals on homosexuals when they think that homosexuality is right? I discussed this with Telcontar. And I discovered that he has the most confusing and vast mind I've ever heard. Nevertheless, he asked this question: Without using the Bible, explain why homosexuality is morally wrong.
After much reasoning and headaches, I came to this conclusion. Homosexuals have a pscyological problem. Doctors will agree. That does not mean they're psycho. Serial killers also have a psychological problem. We all agree that when a man who stabs another, remove the victim's organs and store them in the freezer would most definately have psychological problems. The majority of us have a general conviction as to what is wrong; which are basically morals. Morals are a basis as for setting laws.
Anyways I think thats what I said....
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Telcontar
Junior Member
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise...
Posts: 91
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Post by Telcontar on Oct 3, 2006 0:14:37 GMT -5
I think it'd be much easier to say that a serial killer is wrong than it would be to say that a homosexual is wrong. It's still a good point that you make. I would still say morals would not be a good basis for laws...
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Post by lordofthesquishies on Oct 3, 2006 14:47:56 GMT -5
Morals and the word of God are in my opinion more authoritative than any law. "We must obey God rather than men." Some of my opinions have no logic and are a combination of blind faith and blind stupidity. Regardless I have an unshakable conviction that some of them are right.
P.S. About the mental disorder thing I believe that I may have one in all seriousness. Depression and bipolar run in both sides of my families. I've exhibited some symptoms and had some breakdowns. The most recent was yesterday. Not really relevant but I thought I'd throw that in there.
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Telcontar
Junior Member
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise...
Posts: 91
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Post by Telcontar on Oct 3, 2006 18:55:34 GMT -5
I like you squishies, you're a bright kid and it pains me to see you throw your intellect aside on blind pursuits. Blind faith is a dangerous thing.
I hope you're doing better today also.
At what point is it ok to break the law because you think God is telling you to? Isn't that relativism?
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Post by lordofthesquishies on Oct 3, 2006 19:34:27 GMT -5
I dunno but there is definitely a fine line between following God when he leads u against the flow and becoming a radical zealot. And yeah I'm doin a lot better today, just a little tired. Thanks for asking.
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Post by medowbrookgoer39 on Oct 3, 2006 23:16:32 GMT -5
"Basically if someone doesn't believe in gravity and jumps off a building they will hit the ground and die. If someone doesn't believe in Christianity and dies a sinner they will stand before God and He will send them to Hell. I don't want to make it easier for people to go there."
That may be so, but where do we get off trying to force them using law to stop them from dying a sinner? Especially when creating law to do so requires the breaking of another one.
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Telcontar
Junior Member
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise...
Posts: 91
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Post by Telcontar on Oct 4, 2006 0:10:50 GMT -5
What law are you refering to being broken?
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Post by Princess180 on Oct 4, 2006 12:17:50 GMT -5
Probably something along the lines of freedom of religion.
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Post by medowbrookgoer39 on Oct 4, 2006 15:44:31 GMT -5
I'm not exactly sure what I meant there unless I was talking about lying or something which I was talking about before.
Freedom of religion wouldnt really apply here too much, but we are starting to cross the lines a bit.
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Post by lordofthesquishies on Oct 4, 2006 20:16:34 GMT -5
The Constitution has been amended and reamended. Conclusion: It's an imperfect law.
God is perfect. Conclusion: I defer to him.
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Post by Robby on Oct 4, 2006 22:57:19 GMT -5
wait. so what are we talking about now?
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Telcontar
Junior Member
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise...
Posts: 91
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Post by Telcontar on Oct 4, 2006 23:21:51 GMT -5
God requires us to obey our law even if it is imperfect...
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